[ed. this is a partial trascript - it has been
reproduced as I received it- significant portions of the
testimony are missing (i.e. repeated questioning on same
subject was not reported)]
A summarized transcript of Robert
Springsteen's testimony
updated: 5/25/01 10:47 PM
In an anticipated yet unexpected move Robert Springsteen IV
took the stand in his own defense.
Springsteen said his videotaped confession was coerced by
police and that he believed his requests for a lawyer were
ignored.
Cameras and recording devices are not allowed in the
courtroom. The following is an abbreviated and summarized
transcript of Springsteen's testimony.
The defense lawyer Joe James Sawyer surprised most of the
courtroom when he said, "Call the defendant, your honor."
Springsteen rose and stepped forward and was sworn in by the
Judge Mike Lynch. Springsteen was then asked for testimony by
Sawyer, his lawyer.
State your name.
"Robert Burns Springsteen the fourth."
Are you aware of your Fifth Amendment rights [protection
from self-incrimination]?
"Yes sir."
Did I explain to you that if you choose not to testify the
jury would in no way interpret your decision not to testify …
that it would not be used against you in any way.
"Yes sir, you did."
We discussed the evidence that has been developing and you
voiced your feelings about what Mr. (Berkley) Bettis [defense
co-counsel] and I had talked about [the case], and the
concept of reasonable doubt and that after a full evening to think
about it, it is your decision to take the stand.
"Yes, Mr. Sawyer, that's correct."
Have you been convicted of crime in any state of the
U.S.?
"No sir. … That's incorrect. … It was a misdemeanor
not a felony."
Never been convicted of a felony?
"Nothing, nowhere."
You understand Mr. Springsteen that these people here in the
jury box heard you confess your involvement in these murders?
"Well allegedly confess, yes sir."
You made admissions. Now you're here to tell these people
that's not true?
"Yes I am."
You were first asked about this case a little more than a week
after it happened.
"Approximately, yes sir, that's correct."
Tell the jury how that happened.
"Well as far as I recollect, there were a couple of detectives
that came to my father's residence on Dry Creek Drive. He came in
and said, 'There's some men here that would like to speak to
you.'… (Then said), 'We'd like to take you downtown.' So I
went downtown with them and they asked me about people I was
acquainted with: Mr. Welborn and Mr. Pierce."
Did you answer their questions truthfully to the best of your
knowledge?
"Yes I did."
Do you believe that you were being truthful and accurate?
"Yes, Mr. Sawyer."
And is it true that you, in fact, did see The Rocky Horror
Picture Show that evening?
"Yes it is."
Did Mr. Scott wait for you?
"Yes he did."
After the film was over did you go to Mr. Scott's and spend
the night.
"Yes we did."
Did you travel with the other suspects in a Nissan Pathfinder
the day after the murders?
"Well I believe it was two days later. But that was a true
story."
Did you go to San Antonio to meet a girl [one of the
suspects] recently met?
"I don't specifically remember meeting the girl. But yes, we
did go."
When was the next time you heard from the Austin Police
Department?
"After the first initial contact here. I believe it would have
been in 1993 maybe '94. They contacted me at my parents' residence
in Lincoln County … West Virginia."
Did you tell them to the best of your ability about what you
did?
"Yes."
When you were being questioned the first time, was it made
clear to you that Mr. Pierce was a suspect of committing this
crime with someone else?
"Yes pretty much. Maybe not in those words. But yes."
They told you you weren't a suspect but wanted to know how to
track Mr. Pierce. But you don't know even today that Mr. Pierce
committed the crime.
"No sir. I don't."
Mr. Welborn.
"No sir."
Mr. Scott?
"That's 100 percent correct."
Was there ever a time between 1991, the first time you spoke
to policemen to West Virginia that you said, "I refuse to speak to
you?"
"No. Never."
Do you trust the police if you tell them truth."
"Yes. Completely."
Did you believe they were going to be truthful with you?
"Yes, I sure did."
The evening before [the detectives] came to talk to
you [in West Virginia] tell the jury what you were doing
that evening.
"Well it was more than just that evening. If the interview was
on the 15th, from the 13th to maybe even the night of the 12th, at
that time I had been working two jobs and we had just inherited a
new home ... [we were] remodeling … because we had to
move in because we had to move out [of where we were
living] … I had essentially no sleep for almost three
days. I would say I had less than six hours of sleep in three
days. I was working as a midnight stock person at Kroger …
and I was also a short-order cook at the Aires Eagles FOE …
like a lodge … I was employed part-time there to help out
during the week and weekend. And the work I was doing around the
house. Which was also like a job because it required so much work
so that we could move in.
[Sawyer tells Springsteen to relax a little bit.]
What time did you get off work?
"I would say approximately, [I] probably arrived home
between 8 and 9:30 in the morning.
And how long had your shift been?
"[I was] probably working both jobs from 5 p.m. until
8 a.m. the next morning."
So you actually worked back to back shifts?
"I worked from 5 to 5:30, the cooking job, until 10:30 p.m.,
to night job at Kroger … and worked till 8 a.m."
Did you get some sleep before the police came?
"Yes. About an hour I was assume."
Do you remember what the police told you?
"Well, yes. I think my recollection of the conversation …
the testimony that Mr. [Robert] Merrill [an Austin
police Department detective] proffered earlier is a little
different … That Det. Hodges, of came to the door, in a suit
and said, 'I'm with the Charleston Police Department. And here
with me is an Austin detective. We would like to speak with you.'
Det. Hodges introduced Det. Merrill, we had never met before. I
had never spoke with him. After he introduced us … I said,
'Please come in and have a seat. Can I get you a coffee, a Coke,
water?' They said, 'Well we need to talk to you downtown. I asked,
'Can't we just do it here? [They said], 'There's another
gentleman that needs to talk to you.' [I said], 'I'd be
more than happy to accompany you downtown,'"
Why didn't you stop talking [during the
interrogation]?
"Well to be totally honest. I was under the impression that I
was not allowed to leave at that time."
There were several times where they said you were free to go.
Tell the jury what kept you there.
"Early on in the interview I thought ... That I had invoked my
right to an attorney when I said, "If you are accusing me of
something I would like an attorney present … I though that
was enough to invoke my Fifth or Sixth Amendment, I don't know
that much about law … and they ignored me … I can't
quote verbatim … the next thing I remember they started
asking me was, 'Tell us about Mike.' To me that was … they
totally ignored what I had asked them to do for me, So I was under
the impression that that wasn't a valid option for me."
For at least a couple of hours you said, "I told you what I
did that evening." You told them, "And you don't believe me."
"Yes sir. That's correct."
How did you get to the point that you admit?
"Well I guess I just kind of gave up on myself and said well
… what little bit I do know about the law in West Virginia is
that there has to be evidence matching any type of crime whether
it be a murder, robbery. And I thought, 'Well they keep telling me
that I'm not telling them the truth or that I … if I make up
stories and tell them what they want to hear .. the physical proof
will show that I wasn't there. Little did I know, the laws are
different in Texas. I thought I would be able to prove my
innocence by saying this is a false statement. There is no
evidence because I was not there and here we are today."
How did you know about the crime details.
"Well some of the things were quite publicized as everyone is
aware of. And some of the things [were] within the
community at that time … Northcross Mall was the place to
hang out and … the closeness of the area … it was
something that everyone was talking about. I didn't include myself
in those specific conversations but it's not something you can get
away from either. [There were] groups of tables and
different groups at the tables. So people that knew each other
… acquainted … there's going to be some interaction
between the groups and I figure that's where I picked up some of
the information that I had and also from the newspaper and the
news media."
You said the cops said the gun was a .22. That's because of
Mr. Pierce.
"That's correct."
You and Mr. Pierce and Mr. Welborn aren't that good of friends
any more?
"We were acquainted but … we weren't best friends."
You and Mr. Scott?
"He lived with my father and I for probably three or four
weeks or so. Yes, that's correct.
And after that initial visit, interview … with police in
'91 did you guys have a falling out because you though the police
told you, you were ratting each other out?
"I don't think it was as detailed as that. It basically …
what happened was Mr. Welborn was upset with Mr. Pierce. I still
to this day don't know what he said in 1991 … I was not upset
because I was not implicated in anything. [They just asked me
things like] 'Do you know this? … Were you at Northcross
Mall? … What transpired throughout the day?' But Mr. Welborn
had a real problem with Mr. Pierce saying that they, or him, or
whoever, was involved. And I don't know if it's as detailed as all
that. But I didn't have a falling out with Mr. Pierce. I told him
that I told the officer about the truck, the Pathfinder. [He
asked], 'What did you do that for?' [I said], 'Because
it was the truth.' They asked me if we had been in the Pathfinder
… and that was the only interaction about the police
situation that me and Mr. Pierce had. We didn't specifically
discuss anything between us about the murders themselves. He was
upset with me that I told police about the Pathfinder incident. He
was upset with me and not me upset with him."
[Have you ever owned a .380?]
The only .380 I've ever seen [was when I worked at a
convenience store] and we were open till 2 or 3 [the
manager] had a little silver .380 that he kept behind the
counter at work whenever we had a bunch of riff-raff going in and
out of the store. And as far as I know that's the only .380 I have
ever seen or been acquainted with. During the questioning Det.
Merrill said there was a large caliber weapon in the murders in
addition to the .22. And in my opinion a large caliber weapon
would have been a .45 … a 9 mm … If it was a large
caliber weapon, if I say [it was a] .380 or a .38 or a
.25, something of that nature, then it wouldn't fit the
facts.
[How did you know the facts?]
"The detective would tell me what the facts were."
Do you have today any personal knowledge of who committed
those murders.
"No I have none at all other than what I have seen and heard
in court these past few weeks."
When Det. Merrill was going to get a written statement you
decided to end the interview. Why?
Because the detective finally read my rights and was allowing
me to invoke my attorney-client privilege.
If they had said you were being accused or read you rights at
the beginning would you have left the interview?
"Yes sir. I would have left immediately. I don't believe they
ever told me that I was free to go. They kept iterating (sic) that
I would be going home. After they ignored my request [for a
lawyer] they said, 'You're not going anywhere until you tell
us what we want to know.'
"That's when I decided to go. Because the statement that they
fed … I started taking bits and pieces of what they said and
pieces of what I saw in the media. [They asked], 'Are you
making stuff up? And changing this?' [I answered] Because
I didn't know. I kept creating things and … I guess they were
leading me … down a line to fit the scenario … Until
they read me my rights."
Note: The defense passed the witness and Assistant District
Attorney Robert Smith cross examined Springsteen.
You didn't know that you were being recorded in that
room?
"No sir. I didn't."
Note: Smith asked a few question about why Springsteen ended
the interview and if it was ended because his statement was going
to be recorded in writing.
"No sir. That had nothing to do with it."
So all of the facts are lucky guesses on your part?
"Well I wouldn't call them lucky guesses."
No, they are in fact factual information.
[You said that you understood that if you tell them you
committed the crime they may have lenience?]
"Yes it could be a possibility."
Admit that you did it … that technique didn't work I
guess. You're telling me the only .380 you saw [was at the
convenience store]? So [a witness is lying about the
.380]
"Yes sir. That's 100 percent correct."
How is that you know Mr. Scott didn't get an erection at the
yogurt shop? You said it didn't you?
Mr. Scott said it 24 hours before you said it.
"There isn't anything I can say about that."
[You know that because you were there.]
"No sir that's incorrect."
Was that a lucky guess?
"Well sir, I believe, I was led into that by a police
officer."
[You said, "Mike couldn't get it up."]
"To my recollection, yes sir."
What did you do when you left the shop? What happened at the
there at the bridge. [What did you say in the
confession?]
"I threw up."
What else [Did you say Mr. Scott threw up? Then you said
"Thank you, thank you, thank you."]
"Well Mr. Smith I believe you are taking that out of context.
That's because one of the officers brought me a pop to
drink."
You said Mr. Scott threw up there at the bridge didn't you?
You just said it. Mr. Scott said it.
"Yes sir. It must be [in the statement].
Where were you those days you were missing?
"I don't recall."
You weren't home?
"I may not have been at home all the time. I don't know how to
answer that question … No sir. I wasn't missing."
You had little or no supervision.
"No sir. That's not correct."
Mr. Scott and you were both dropouts with nothing to do but
hang out?
"No sir. It's not…"
Were you working three jobs back then?
"No."
You were a dropout were you not?
Technically speaking, yes I was.
So was Mr. Scott?
[Springsteen said he wasn't sure.]
Did he have a job?
"I don't recall whether he had a job or not. I think he was
looking for one."
Explain to the jury why you have [changed] the
statement that you gave to police the first time they questioned
you. You told [a detective] that you didn't go to the
movie then. Then you wrote in a statement that you snuck into a
movie … See a problem there?
"No."
You don't see a problem there? You wrote it down that
way.
"Maybe I misunderstood the way the conversation was
headed."
[The statements says many times you were at the mall at
11:40 p.m.]
"Yes, sir."
At least five or six times, is that true?
[Sawyer asked the judge if he can give Springsteen the
document. The judge said he could.]
"I would have to see the document."
[A detective's] notes indicate the same thing; that
you were at the mall at 11:40 [at The Rocky Horror Picture
Show.] Do you disagree?
"No I wouldn't."
There's something about the time 11:40 that's important to
you…
"That's a time that was important … to police
officers."
They had you write that out in your handwriting. Is that your
testimony?
"Yes."
So you were able to get the caliber of the weapon that was
used in the murders 10 years later?
"Well it's also possible that during my questioning, either
here in Austin … that that was brought up …"
You better change it [your story]. Det. Merrill told
you it was a large caliber weapon. Is that your testimony?
"I believe somewhere in there."
And you guessed the .380 right?
"I'd believe I had to say yes."
A silver .380? It just so happens that's the exact weapon
used. [A witness testified you had that gun.]
"He's lying. I never had a .380 in my life."
Have you owned guns before? [You said two different things
in your confession that you never had guns and that you collected
guns.]
"Family members in my family collect guns that I have access
to. But I do not collect guns myself."
Did you tell the West Virginia police that you were a suspect
in 1992.
"No sir. That's a misinterpretation of the conversation.
… Yes sir, I would like to clarify. When I was speaking with
Officer Gunno I had an Austin, Texas ID card because at that point
I didn't have a driver's license. [He said], 'Isn't that
where the murder took place that's been all over the national
news.' And I said, 'Yes sir. Some acquaintances of mine were
brought in and questioned and they brought me in and asked me
questions about my friends."
[So you didn't tell him.]
"Well he inferred from that."
[What about not being at Kelly Hanna's house?]
"I wasn't supposed to be at Kelly Hanna's. We were supposed to
go to her house on the night of the Pathfinder. That's when we
were supposed to go."
So your previous statement that you went to San Antonio, I
thought you said, "She went with us?"
"There's a difference in my opinion between knowing something
and thinking something."
In that Nissan Pathfinder, were you making it up that you got
Sunday newspaper?
"No sir. I got a Sunday paper every week. I still do."
And you read the story on the yogurt shop?
"I'm sure I did if it was in there."
[Did you read the story out loud to everyone?]
"I don't recall. It's plausible yes."
Tell us what you did on Dec. 6, 1991.
"Where do you want me to start?"
You have all these different stories, pick one.
In the morning we [Pierce, Scott, Welborn] arrived at
the mall and we hung out through the afternoon. At approximately 5
to 6 o'clock Mr. Pierce and Mr. Welborn left and me and Mike were
sitting outside the arcade … and they ran off to pick up Mr.
Pierce's sister for work … I don't recall … we were
sitting on a park bench, talking, smoking cigarettes, watching the
Hooter's girls … Mr. Pierce came back and through the parking
lot at a good rate of speed and said there was a bunch of guys
over there throwing stuff at the car. Mr. Scott and myself got
back in the vehicle with them and drove around looking around for
these Hispanic gentlemen throwing things at Mr. Pierce's car. We
did not find them. We drove around some more and … in 1991
there was another, I don't know if you call it a strip mall …
directly across the street … There was another arcade over
there that had two entrances. I believe we were over there and
spent some more money in the arcade and then went back to
Northcross where I spent the rest of the evening. …
Approximately between 10:20 and 10:30 Mr. Pierce left [because
his sister got off work] and he took her home and he was
supposed to return to take me and Mr. Scott at 1:30 … after
The Rocky Horror Picture Show. And they never returned. A man
named Bob or Robert … who attended [the movie]
numerous times before [offered us a ride]. I lived over on
Dry Creek and he said I'm going kind of toward 35 … Mike's
mother lived over there close to McCallum so he gave us a ride
… dropped us off and we walked to Mr. Scott's mother's house
and we spent the night there."
Here's a copy of the what you wrote to the police. Tell the
jury if there's anything about the second arcade you just
described in that statement.
"No sir. This statement covers from 8 p.m. to 12
midnight."
And there's nothing in [a detective's] note about that
second arcade.
"I don't know sir. I have never seen his notes."
There's nothing in that [statement] you gave to police
in West Virginia about that same arcade.
"Not that I recall, no."
You never told [Det.] Paul Johnson on the phone about
that.
"Not that I recall."
[Another question about the arcade.]
"Mr. Smith, I don't recall."
This is the first time you said anything [about the second
arcade.
"No sir. I don't believe that is true at all."
Did you just say you went to The Rocky Horror Picture
Show?
"Yes sir. I snuck in."
How did you sneak in?
"The person taking the tickets went to the soda counter and
when he had his back turned, I went in."
[A friend] who was looking for you didn't see you
there. Tell us then, Mr. Springsteen, how it is that you, 10 years
later, know the exact position of Amy Ayer's body on the floor of
the yogurt shop.
"I didn't until I heard testimony here in court."
Did you know you demonstrated that exact position?
"No sir. I saw the photos on the screen just like everyone
else did."
Tell us how you came to that conclusion when the police said
describe the position.
"I don't think it looks like the same position to me."
We'll let the jury decide that. Did you know you actually did
that three different times?
"I didn't [know]. … It looks to me like anyone
that would be laying on their stomach."
No further questions.
Note: With that the testimony ended; both lawyers approached
the bench. Shortly after the defense rested its case.